My friend, Pendard, called me tonight to vent. The reason? He’d gone to a writing workshop with two new friends, one of whom got defensive about every single suggestion. This person could not accept the fact that any changes needed to be made to the piece at all. The worst part was that there were elements of the story that Pendard really liked and inspired a similar story that he wanted to write himself. So, he called me to vent about how maddening it was to workshop with this writer as well as to lament the fact that he would never be able to write the story sparked in him, because it would be plagiarism.
Would it? I asked.
I asked him what elements he found interesting. The basic concept was one that has not only already been done in several mediums, but it’s one that Pendard had mentioned wanting to write years ago (he’d forgotten). So, I told him that he shouldn’t feel bad about writing something inspired by her idea, because not only was the concept one that she’d likely gleaned from elsewhere, but it was one that he’d mentioned wanting to write a while back. Also, writers are inspired by (steal from) each other all the time. Also, it isn’t about the basic idea, but how well it’s executed. Also, if the writer can’t take criticism, this story is never going to see the light of day anyway.
I could hear his disappointment in me as he said, “So basically, Ms. Zuckerberg, if Facebook was their idea, they would’ve invented Facebook?”
Pendard and I have talked about The Social Network, and I remember having many conversations about that movie, because I was apparently one of the only people who saw Zuckerberg portrayed sympathetically in that film, and who didn’t think he was so entirely an asshole.
Here is where I draw my moral line: if the idea is a general concept that’s already been used, or has likely been used elsewhere, using it isn’t a douchebag move. In the case of Facebook (and I know the film differs from true events), Zuckerberg was hired by guys to work on code for a social networking site, and he improved on their idea, so he created his own. Should he have continued to take their money and waste their time when he had no intention of following through? No. And that was his douchebag move. Improving on their idea that was already derivative of already existing social media platforms was not.
What bothered me when watching that was the thought that, had Zuckerberg not gone on to make billions, the guys that sued him probably wouldn’t have cared. It wasn’t the morality of the issue that was spurring them to action. It wasn’t about their pet project, their “baby”, being stolen. It wasn’t about honor amongst computer programmers. It was about the money. So, when Zuckerberg (played wonderfully by Jesse Eisenberg) says “If Facebook was your idea, you would’ve invented Facebook,” I was all “Hell. Yes.”
How does this apply to writing?
Well, in the case of Pendard, he clarified that he not only latched on to this writer’s larger concepts, but to specific characters and specific relationships. Once that was clarified, I said “Well, yeah, in that case, that would definitely be stealing.” So, he’s going to be writing the story as a writing exercise to get it out of his system and never do anything with it. Fine. But even after that distinction, he seemed to continue to have trouble with my position on the subject, and said (only) half-jokingly “Well, I’m never going to share any of my good ideas in a writing workshop with you ever again!”
And I haven’t been able to stop thinking about this all night. Because I genuinely believe that there are circumstances in which it’s okay to write something that riffs on someone else’s idea. But at the same time, I try really hard to have integrity and to be a Woman of Her Word. The idea that someone might not trust me in a creative context really shook me up. Naturally, I had to examine this via blogging. 
Two things that need explaining:
1) This bias might make me an even bigger asshole than vaulting off someone else’s idea, but whether or not I respect someone as a writer makes a difference in where I draw my line. I remember saying to Pendard something like “I would never write something inspired by something you’ve written like that,” and it has nothing to do with the fact that we’re friends. The reason is that Pendard is an amazing and disciplined writer, and I believe without question that he will be published, and that many, if not all, the ideas he shares with me will be out in the world in some form someday. I see that as inevitable. We’re in a writing workshop with two other friends, and I feel the same about their work. If I genuinely believe that your talent/ambition/discipline will allow you to make writing your life, I am less likely to be interested in riffing on anything of yours, and more interested in creating something to completely distinguish myself from you. However, not knowing this other writer at all, and just knowing that the writer is the kind of person who thinks their work needs no work…that not only lessens my opinion of them, but also makes me think that their work is never going to be seen, because this person is going to be hell for any editor to work with. And if I can think of a way to salvage a kernel of a good idea, and you’re going to refuse any and all suggestions…? I might.
2) Years ago, I shared an early version of my story, “The Sandbox” (which can now be found in On the Ground Floor), with Pendard, asking him for notes. He gave me his notes, and told me he liked it by saying that he was inspired to play with it and write his own version, and that he meant that as a compliment, because when he was in high school he and his friends would do that with each others’ stories when they liked them.
If you’ve read “The Sandbox”, you know that it’s a story about a political situation using the metaphor of kids playing in a sandbox. Now, if my story had inspired him to write a story about politics using children as a metaphor, I wouldn’t have had a problem with that at all. I mean, it’s not as if I was the first person to do that. If he wrote a story using the sandbox as well as characters like mine…that would’ve made me angry.
I don’t know what I’m trying to say with all of this. This is how I feel about things now, but it could change. Basically, I’d love to hear from the writers out there about where they draw their lines when it comes to inspiration/borrowing/stealing/homage, particularly pre-publication. I’m not talking about reading something in a book/magazine then trying to pass it off as your own. I’m talking about the ideas we’re exposed to every day when we associate with other writers. When is it a riff, or inspiration, and when is it plagiarism, and is any of it OK? I’m still trying to figure it out. All I know is that I’d like very much to not be an asshole.
You’re definitely not an asshole, Teresa. I understand what you’re going through since I’ve discussed different ideas with a friend of mine regarding possible future collaborations. He shared with me a germ of an idea that he had, and just by giving me the little bit of info, he inspired me to think about something similar. If what I had in mind was similar to what he had started writing, then I would have gladly collaborated with him, but the first few pages didn’t match and I believe he had since abandoned the project.
I’m still thinking about it and I think the idea he gave would make for a terrific background for a good story. Whether I’m going to start writing it after I move to St. Louis remains to be seen, but I wouldn’t feel good about it until I clear it with him.
It wasn’t just that Zuckerberg was wasting their time and money, he was stringing them along to give himself as much of a head start as possible. He was being more than a jerk, he was posturing them out of the game. Had he not been a jerk, they may well have been able to find somebody else to do the coding for them and been ahead of him. Whether they would have gotten as big as facebook is seems unlikely, but with Zuckerberg’s potentially slower start, he might not have gotten that first bump he needed to take off. The Winkelvoss twins lost because this is business as usual in the corporate world, asshole-ish as it may be.
In writing, I think the situation would be akin to this: You tell somebody in a writing workshop that their idea is good but needs a lot of work. You work with them on it as painstakingly slowly as possible, giving them bad advice while writing and submitting your version of the story behind their back. What you’re suggesting isn’t even close to that, so I don’t think you’re an asshole. Still, the person you’re inspired by may not feel the same way.
To answer your title: when they pick up a pen! Har har….that is a joke.
In seriousness, I am not actually a writer, but if I WERE a writer, I think my limits would come down to general concepts versus specifics. If I read a fairy tale by A.S. Byatt, retelling it from a feminist perspective, and I’m inspired to write a retelling of a different fairy tale from a queer perspective, I don’t think I’m robbing from Byatt. Likewise, if we were in a writing group and I started bringing in a book about a young person who suddenly finds themselves with an unusual power and copes with the changes this brings, and you brought in a different one the next week, how could I be offended? That plot-line makes up, like, 99% of YA novels. However, if your created world looked like mine, if the power was the same, if the characters were the same, if your writing style suddenly mirrored mine, then you’d be an asshole. I think your sandbox example is a good one, as well.
I have to say though, I am a bit put off/concerned by your first point. Frankly, I do think that makes you more of an asshole. The ‘line’ should be in the same place for everyone. Who are you to decide what makes another author ‘good’ or not? You aren’t the arbiter of good taste. No one person is. Maybe you think it’s ok to steal from them because they’ll never be published anyway. How do you know that? If Stephenie Meyer had been in a writer’s group with me I would have assumed she was destined for the garbage bin. It’s impossible to predict things like that with accuracy. Maybe it’s not about whether they’ll be published, but about thinking you can do it better. Again, says who? Taste is subjective. What you consider worlds better might be seen as vastly inferior by someone else. What’s to stop them from using the same argument with your work? “I personally don’t think it’s good, I can write a better story using children in a sandbox as a metaphor for middle east relations.” Does that sound ok to you? And if not, then I’d caution you against doing it to others. Finally, the thing about not taking critique; yes, that is a sticking point for me as well. It does make me lose respect for a person as a writer (and kind of as a human being, too). But I don’t think that we get to “punish” people whose actions we don’t like by stealing from them. Also, people can change; maybe this person will show up at the next workshop all apologetic and willing to make edits. Probably not, but you never know. Certainly, people can change in the longterm. Five years from now, that un-respectable writer may be a completely different person whose work would astound you. You’re assuming that the talent level and personality of this other writer is static. I think that’s a false assumption, and frankly, a self-serving one that allows you to feel justified in behaving differently toward them than you would anyone else. “Rescuing” a kernel of an idea, if it’s the kind of general stuff discussed: fine. “Rescuing” a whole complex concept that is unique to that author, because you’re judged them “unworthy”: asshole. Unfair behavior doesn’t become fair just because you don’t like or respect the other person.
The thing is, I can’t picture you ever doing that, from anyone, regardless of your feelings about them/their talent. I think you’re a better person than you’re giving yourself credit for on that one. Sorry for the rambling.
Ramble away!
This is exactly what I wanted, and I pretty much agree w/what everyone’s saying. As to that point about someone’s talent – I wasn’t saying that it’s something that I do on purpose, but I was admitting that it does color my opinion. I don’t purposely seek out people I think are less motivated/disciplined/whatever and fuck with their shit – but if I do think that about them, it might make me less likely to be concerned about my line. I’m not proud of that, but it’s something I definitely have to keep in check. Also, of course talent is subjective – I didn’t really mean “talent” so much as the discipline/work ethic. Like, in the case of this person – if this writer is the kind of person who doesn’t ever take criticism, chances are – if they don’t change – they will never do anything with their work. That’s what I mean – not necessarily whether or not their work is any good, though the two often work hand in hand, because if someone’s never taking criticism, their work is never getting better.
And you are right. I would never lift someone’s specific whole-cloth like that, no matter what I thought of them or their writing.
Basically, this boils down to the Golden Rule for me. I wouldn’t want to be in a writing workshop, share my half-baked ideas with other writers, and then find out that one of them had written a close but different version of my idea and published it. To me, that is a violation of the trust of a workshop, and it’s plagiarism. And, while I agree with you that this piece of work is unlikely ever to see the light of day, I don’t think my opinion of the author or the quality of the work has anything to do with whether it’s plagiarism or not. It’s a black and white ethical situation to me. If you wouldn’t steal an idea from a writer you respect, you shouldn’t steal an idea from someone you don’t respect either.
The problem with plagiarism is that sometimes it’s difficult to spot when you’re doing it. Everyone knows they shouldn’t lift a sentence or a paragraph without crediting the author. But sometimes it’s less cut and dry. I wrote something once in which I lifted a situation from a memoir I read and altered it significantly. The one detail I used was from a personal experience of an historical event so, at the time, it never crossed my mind that it was plagiarism — I was simply using a detail from a true story. It wasn’t until a few months later, when the work was in the public eye, that it occurred to me that I may have crossed the line: the event was historical, but the detail I had appropriated was a personal experience around which the person in question had built a memoir. It was a borderline case, but the worry that I may have borrowed from another author a little too liberally has made me reluctant to do anything else with that particular project. It seems like too much work to remove the possibly plagiarized element (which fits perfectly into the project) but I don’t want to have to worry that someone will recognize it and make a stink about it, especially in a review or, God forbid, a lawsuit. Once a writer gets a reputation, it’s all over.
The situation we discussed yesterday was more cut and dry than that one, at least for me. Whatever my opinion of the writer’s talent, this story was her pet project. I would have been taking the a streamlined version of the general concept, significantly altered versions of three of her characters and then telling a story that was completely original. Under the circumstances, I could write it for the hell of it as long as I didn’t plan to publish it — but publishing it would be very unethical.
I have one final point about “riffing” on other writers’ work: You have to make a distinction between published and unpublished work. Obviously, nobody has a problem with something like West Side Story riffing on Romeo and Juliet. Romeo and Juliet had established its reputation so there was no harm riffing on it — in fact, it’s kind of flattering for Romeo and Juliet. But if Shakespeare and Robbins/Bernstein/Sondheim were contemporaries and the R/B/S group read an unfinished version of Romeo and Juliet and then made West Side Story and came out with it first, they would be doing real damage to Shakespeare’s chances of getting his play published and, I would argue, plagiarizing his idea. There’s a huge difference between riffing on something after the fact, which is an homage, and riffing on something that is unpublished or unknown, which would essentially be enriching yourself by stealing another person’s idea.
That’s the thing – it IS less cut and dry, which is why I wrote this post. And everything you’re saying here makes complete sense. However, it’s interesting that you seem to place more weight on taking from another person’s unpublished idea, whereas I think my gut would have more of a problem taking from someone’s published idea. Then again, perhaps that’s more because it’s a legal quandary than a moral one? I don’t know…
For example, I shared a story with you in workshop that was a version of an already published story by a well known author from a different character’s POV. Now, the protagonist of the story was entirely invented by me, as were her circumstances for being in the story, etc. In fact, we only see the original story in glimpses as everything I wrote happens around it. Right now, I’m working on a condensed version of that story for publication, because I was invited to be a part of a sci-fi anthology, and this story fits the its theme. But now, I’m worried that I might have crossed a line there – so I’m thinking of asking the author what he thinks.
And yes, once you get a reputation, it’s over – which is why I’m examining this now when I’m a total nobody, and no one cares.
Actually, I was thinking about the story you wrote that you shared in the workshop as I was considering different scenarios. I think that, since that was a published story, what you did was fine. However, if you had repurposed somebody’s unpublished story like that without their permission you would be crossing the line, especially if you did it for publication.
The difference is that enough readers would have read the published author that your story would clearly be seen as an homage, or at least a nod to their work. But no one would have read the unpublished author — unless you credited them, your readers would naturally believe it was all your original idea.